Into the lost valley of the Dinosaurs - the response to Women on the Front Line.
It has been
announced that the UK is going to admit women to every single role in the armed
forces, including the Special Forces. For the first time in our history, men
and women can apply to do every single job in the military, regardless of gender,
providing they meet the appropriate standards.
To most people
this seems a common sense outcome, but to some it has been the cause of outrage.
There are former service personnel out there who have for some years now been
deeply opposed to the role of Women in the infantry, and have made no effort to
hide their anger. Just read these quotes, taken from a Daily
Telegraph article in 2016:
“The people
who have demanded this change – politicians desperate to be seen as
“progressive”, feminist zealots and ideologues hell-bent on equality of
opportunity without exception – would never dream of volunteering. Indeed only
a very small number of women will want to join the infantry and of those only a
fraction will have the physical capability. Hence the need to lower the bar….
I have not
heard a single serving or retired infantryman say that admitting women is the
right thing to do – unless their wives or senior officers are listening. The
overwhelming majority are vehemently opposed and many have said that if women
join they will leave…
Through no
fault of their own, women will often become the weak link in an infantry team.”
Now, imagine reading
those words and replacing ‘women’ with ‘black people’, ‘homosexuals’, ‘Muslims’
or other similar phrases. Hopefully that would make you feel deeply
uncomfortable and alarmed at the flagrant discrimination on display. So why is
it the case that seemingly educated people can still hold such views today?
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Image by Ministry of Defence; © Crown copyright |
Life in the infantry is as much a calling as it is a career.
There are relatively few people out there who willingly want to take on a job
that involves living and working in often very uncomfortable situations, doing
a lot of physical work and potentially being exposed to significant risk. It’s
a difficult and at times very dangerous job. The British Army has struggled to
fill its infantry units for years, yet in a time of recruiting crisis, a few people
seem to be more obsessed with the idea that people who haven’t got a willy can’t
possibly do the job and its dangerous to let them in.
One of the great strengths of the British Armed Forces has
been their willingness and adaptability to embrace changed circumstances. Humphrey
recalls serving before the ban on homosexual personnel serving was lifted, and
hearing worried tales of how it would impact the military. For instance, Iain
Duncan Smith MP, then Shadow Defence Spokesman said in 2000 on hearing the ban
would be lifted:
"I
believe and have always believed, as the previous government did, that we
should follow the advice of the armed forces which has always been that lifting
the ban would adversely affect operational effectiveness." (LINK)
Today, just 18
years later, it is hard not to look at words like this and cringe a bit inside
at just how pathetic they now sound. Similar words were probably spoken condemning
women at sea or integration in the armed forces in general. In a world where
the lifting of the ban seemed to cause a shrug of the shoulders and a ‘err
okay, what time is scran’ reaction from most people, its hard not to feel that
some people do protest too much.
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Image by Ministry of Defence; © Crown copyright |
There is no doubt
that the infantry is a particularly close knit group and that bonds are formed
quickly in adversity. But some people, usually either never served or very long
retired, seem obsessed with the idea that women are somehow the weaker sex and
simply cannot ‘hack it’. They seem to believe there is some secret and ultra zealous
unit of PC Commissars determined to force women onto the military without
confirming they can meet the same standards.
In fact the
Army has gone out of its way to make clear that the same physical fitness
standards apply now to everyone. If you meet them then you can do the job – if not
then you aren’t up to standard. It is particularly ironic that the same people
are moaning about women not being fit to meet the standards when the Daily Mail
gets to publish articles about modern British soldiers being too fat to fight (LINK).
The usual thematic
arguments for opposition to women in the front line seem to boil down to three
basic problems (a couple of US example articles are HERE
and HERE).
a.
Physical Fitness;
b.
Risk of Sexual Assault if captured;
c.
Chances of couples forming in the field;
d.
‘girly stuff’
It is understandable
that people will have concerns that women may not be able to meet the same load
carrying ability as men. But frankly those that push this argument forget that
not all men can meet the standards required to carry heavy packs or advance for
hours before fighting. It is always going to be a tiny percentage of people in
society who meet these standards, regardless of gender. But if you are fit
enough to meet the British Army gender neutral fitness test (HERE),
then you meet the standard. Its not difficult – either you are fit enough to do
the job, or you’re not.
As for the risk
of sexual assault if captured, there are quite a few hyperbolic comments on the
internet out there that imply that somehow if a woman was captured then she
would be raped. They’re probably quite right. What they don’t seem to realise
is there is an equally high chance of it happening to male prisoners too as a
tool of control. Humphrey recalls listening to some fairly grim and no holds
barred training lectures setting out in very clear details what has happened in
the past to people captured. The idea that being a male makes you inviolate is
touching but very naïve. Bluntly, anyone captured is at risk regardless of
gender – this isn’t a reason to not let women serve in the infantry.
Finally the
perennial chestnut of ‘risk of people coupling up’. According to some people
our modern young infantry soldiers are simply unable to cope with the idea that
apparently you can’t possibly work with a lady in testing circumstances without
them wanting to shag you. Therefore to avoid problems, these clearly sexually
voracious women shouldn’t be let near those poor innocent little infantry lambs who clearly can't cope.
There is no
doubt that operations, particularly when living together in close quarters can
breed strong and intense bonds. There are plenty of accounts from WW2 of the ‘bonds
of brotherhood’ that soldiers had in the front line. There is also no doubt
that couples form in the armed forces, sometimes on deployment and that this
needs to be carefully managed.
Presumably the same risks doesn’t apply to homosexual couples - oh wait, the same excuse was used before that ban was lifted too. But the idea that somehow every squaddy in a mixed infantry platoon is going to be coupling up and at risk of combat efficiency is a bit of a joke really.
Presumably the same risks doesn’t apply to homosexual couples - oh wait, the same excuse was used before that ban was lifted too. But the idea that somehow every squaddy in a mixed infantry platoon is going to be coupling up and at risk of combat efficiency is a bit of a joke really.
Frankly we need
a fairly mature conversation that recognises the men and women who serve are
often young, often working in emotionally charged situations and sometimes get
intimately close. That doesn’t mean they can’t do the job at hand of killing
the enemy.
The final
reasons cited seems to be that apparently girls have different ‘needs’ to men.
This appears to be a damning indictment on the inbuilt repression of British puberty
and sex education, where grown and educated men seem unable to say that ‘women
tend to bleed out of their vagina once a month and use a variety of products to
deal with this’. Heaven forbid there is visible
bleeding on the battlefield.
When the strength of your argument as to why 50% of the population by gender should be discriminated against and barred from joining is because they may occasionally need to ‘do a number three’ when going to the loo, then frankly, you perhaps need to accept your argument is pretty weak.
When the strength of your argument as to why 50% of the population by gender should be discriminated against and barred from joining is because they may occasionally need to ‘do a number three’ when going to the loo, then frankly, you perhaps need to accept your argument is pretty weak.
There is a
wider discussion about the fact that the front line is a fairly muddy dirty and
unpleasant place to live and that many people may not want to be there for a
living. That’s not an exclusively female ‘girly girl’ thing to not want to do.
Most men don’t particularly enjoy the idea of an infantry lifestyle either – Humphrey
joined the Naval Service in part because he preferred the idea of going to war
with a steward and pink gin at his side, which was ironic given he later ended
up on the streets of Afghanistan…
To say that
because most women may not want the infantry lifestyle is a reason not to let
them join seems spectacularly self-defeating. Why turn off the recruitment taps
from those who do want it, just because they’ve got breasts?
The reality is the
history of the British Armed Forces is about putting women into positions of
great danger on the front lines and letting them play a full and active part in
it. Look at the astounding work of the women agents in the SOE during WW2, or
the astonishing courage of the Medics in Afghanistan who won numerous gallantry
awards. The front line does not distinguish between cap badges and genders. If
you are deployed on modern operations, you are likely to be operating in a
complex and ever changing environment where units and roles blend together. To
act as if there is a neatly defined ‘front line’ and then beautifully mapped
rear echelons working their way back to the homeland, and then defining the bit
where it is appropriate for ladies to serve is utterly self-defeating.
The chances are
that relatively few women will want to serve in the infantry or Special Forces,
but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be given every opportunity to do so. There
are plenty of people, usually never served armchair generals, who are quick to
comment about ‘dropping of standards’ in Selection to get women in without the
slightest empirical evidence to back it up.
The Royal
Marines have already made clear that the Green Beret is only won by passing the
Commando Tests, and these will remain an absolute standard. There are few people
who can do this (after all ’99.9% need
not apply’), and the Corps has preferred to maintain its standards and take
the manpower hit associated than compromise. There is zero evidence that this
will change – and rightly so. As Lady Appleby put it when I discussed this
issue with her ‘why would a woman want to
feel she has got in by reaching a lesser standard than a man’?
Similarly UK Special
Forces Selection training will remain the most exceptionally difficult course to
pass. The hills don’t care what your gender is, they will take equal pleasure
in inflicting suffering and misery on you. Again, the UKSF have chosen not to
compromise their standards in the past even when faced with manning challenges,
so it is exceptionally unlikely that this would change just to maximise the
chances to ‘get a woman in’. The reality is those that attend selection, let alone
pass it, are supremely fit and capable people – their gender is irrelevant.
War is a violent,
horrible and awful thing. It is not something that most people would willingly
wish to go through, and it requires a mentality shift that most struggle with.
Humphrey recalls as a junior officer under training being told about how Sea
Dart when used in an anti-ship missile role would throw a lot of spare fuel
around the space it hit, causing extra damage and fatalities. A fellow officer
blanched, at which point the instructor made the point ‘we are training for war
and need to exploit every opportunity to kill the enemy’. Thinking into that
mentality is difficult, but vital.
To assume that
only men can do this in one specific part of the battlefield is ridiculous – these
views bear no resemblance to modern society or the people we need to attract to
make up the next generation of army recruits. It is vital that to stop the
critical shortfall in manpower (for instance, as shown in this MOD
FOI response, the Scots Guards are nearly 300 personnel short right now) to
maximise the recruiting base.
On that note,
Humphrey does wish that the rules were changed to prevent retired officers from
clinging to their job titles as if they were still serving. It is excruciating
to watch yesterdays men, now totally irrelevant to the modern military getting
airtime and columns and being allowed to use their rank.
Perhaps the
rules should be modernised to make it clear that you can only call yourself ‘Colonel’
if you are a serving and paid Colonel. If you retire then you must put ‘RETIRED’
in front of your rank, not Rtd as a post nominal. If you resign your commission
then you cannot use it at all.
The reason this
is an issue is when people see former officers, particularly those who insist
on photos being used with them in uniform, and assume they represent serving personnel,
not long retired dinosaurs with views that many in the modern military find
irrelevant at best, and abhorrent at worst.
Frankly the
only issue that really matters in all of this is one posed by a friend of Humphreys,
who on learning that women will be eligible to join the Royal Marines asked ‘when they all go ashore for a beer will the
women be expected to wear dresses and lingerie like all the lads do or will they be required
to dress up as men’?
God, you're so politically correct, so on-script, it's nauseating.
ReplyDeleteThe SAS and SBS select from the top 1% of male soldiers. Female soldiers cannot compete with male soldiers - they're weaker and slower; have less stamina, weaker spatial skills and slower reaction times; they get injured easier. And they change the camaraderie for the worse.
If women are just as good as men at being soldiers, let's see a women-only battalion and let's have them go head-to-head with a men-only battalion, be they Russian or Chinese. If it takes a massacre to push back against this insidious ideology of equality, so be it.
David Suarez - You are a buffoon. The SAS and SBS 'DO NOT' select from the top 1% of male soldiers. You must have got that information from the internet somewhere because it bears absolutely no truth in reality! It's a selection process that encompasses much more than the size of your dick and how fast you can swing it!
DeleteYou are behind the times and your information is outdated and no-longer relevant.
You are also too late to the discussion on women serving as SF soldiers because they already are serving around the world and have been doing so for some time. Swedish SF forces for example!!!......and multiple other nations.
Are Swedish women stronger, faster, have more stamina and spatial awareness and faster reaction times than British service women? No!!!
Women as SF operatives is already happening and i believe that they will add an extra bit of 'Special' once they are permitted to join our elite SAS and SBS.........perhaps they are already members and have you under surveillance right now!
Presumably David you're basing this on your extensive military career in Special Forces? I'm guessing you have lots of experience to draw on otherwise your hyperbolic points make you look a little bit like a caricature.
ReplyDeleteLike your extensive SF career? You've never served a day in the army and yet managed to write a long blog post dismissing out-of-hand the views of many people who have.
DeleteKeep it coming fanbois, you have no proof.
DeleteNo proof of what? I'm not sure this reply makes much sense.
DeleteWhy do I have to have extensive military experience to know that men and women are different? Only ideologues believe otherwise.
ReplyDeleteFor goodness' sake, even ping pong tournaments are divided by sex, yet we're to believe that the best women soldiers can hang with the best male ones. Come on.
If women are completely incapable of passing SF selection why are you worried, none of them will ever enter a SF unit?
DeleteStandards will be dropped to accommodate them. Obviously.
DeleteIt's interesting you think UKSF consists of the SBS and SAS doing "kinetic" soldiering things.
DeleteThe SRR, a core component of UKSF, and it's predecessor units the SRU and MRF have used both male and female operators since the 1970s.
Why will standards be dropped? Sorry, not at all obvious.
DeleteThe female physical standards for the SRR are lower than the male standards.
DeleteThe standards for SF selection may not be dropped but they have already been significantly lowered for normal infantry units.
I'm inclined to agree that this is an unusually poor article from Sir Humphrey that misses most of the key arguments against the inclusion of women in favour of sanctimonious attacks on others as 'irrelevant dinosaurs'. A very large number of serving personnel have serious reservations about this move but that isn't reflected in the right-on commentary from people like Sir Humphrey.
How have the physical standards been lowered for normal infantry units? I have seen the new tests and they correspond with what is required to do the job effectively.
DeleteIf Sir H has missed the key arguments against the inclusion of women, could you share them?
"Why will standards be dropped? Sorry, not at all obvious."
DeleteBecause it's what has happened in every specialism opened to women in every army in the world.
The role is opened to women, no women pass selection, standards are found to be "unrealistic in regards to modern soldiering", new standards are created, women pass, combat effectiveness drops precipitously.
Reveal yourself as Richard Kemp 2.0.
DeleteI remember people saying the same when Asians and Blacks were integrated in the military. Oh how the same dogs bark.
Delete'Because it's what has happened in every specialism opened to women in every army in the world'. If every army has done it then it will be easy to provide examples, please do so. From my experience I've never seen female signalers get longer to establish comms, female REME get longer to repair a battle damaged tank, female pilots get a wider area to hit with a weapon. This argument doesn't stand up.
DeleteFruit man
DeleteNot what I said.
The standard for all will be march X distance in Y minutes Z load.
When women fail to do so, the standard for everyone will be dropped to what enough women can pass
"How have the physical standards been lowered for normal infantry units? I have seen the new tests and they correspond with what is required to do the job effectively."
DeleteHave another look at the run time. It's 80% of the length in a longer time. Tabbing requirements are also much easier to complete.
"If Sir H has missed the key arguments against the inclusion of women, could you share them?".
Team cohesion. This is the argument that the MOD found compelling until the sudden change in 2016 and still regards as a problem that will require strong leadership to mitigate.
Domo: what you said 'Because it's what has happened in every specialism opened to women in every army in the world'. When they opened the REME to women did they drop standards - no, Signals - no, pilots - no. So your argument is false.
DeleteThe new fitness tests are gender neutral, either you pass them or you don't. If you pass you can do the job, if you can't, you don't.
Again you say standards will be dropped, but don't offer any evidence of why you are directly contradicting the MoD's statement.
Anonymous: 'Have another look at the run time. It's 80% of the length in a longer time. Tabbing requirements are also much easier to complete. ' You're comparing oranges and apples, the new PES is objectively what's required to do the job based on experience of recent conflicts.
DeleteAnonymous: Team cohesion, is this not point c. Chances of couples forming in the field, which Sir H responded to?
DeleteI hate to break this to you, but not everyone in a platoon always gets on, even if they are all male. Getting the team to work together is a leadership challenge as old as war itself.
@Fruit
Delete"Again you say standards will be dropped, but don't offer any evidence of why you are directly contradicting the MoD's statement."
"You're comparing oranges and apples, the new PES is objectively what's required to do the job based on experience of recent conflicts."
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteFruit man is so brainwashed he won't even admit he's wrong when UK soldiers start getting massacred against peer enemies. This is the problem with ideologues - there's quite literally nothing you can say that will make them change their mind.
DeleteOn brown and black soldiers joining the military, they were men. Brown and black men are near enough as physically competent as white men on average, with blacks slightly ahead. See sports. Also, male units have different bonding experiences to mixed-sex ones, and that matters when it comes to war.
David Suarez: I'm quite happy to change my mind, all I have asked for is some evidence that standards will be lowered as result of this decision. I've got a statement from the MoD saying they won't on one side (something which to me makes sense from a litigation point of view) and nothing from the other, so unless you give me something to work with, why would I change my view?
Delete" I'm quite happy to change my mind, all I have asked for is some evidence that standards will be lowered as result of this decision"
DeleteAnd yet we keep pointing out the standards that have dropped and you keep declaring it irrelevant....
You haven't pointed out the standards have dropped, you picked one element of the physical fitness test and said it's easier, I said show the full tests and compare them, which you haven't done. Cherry picking your data doesn't make for a convincing case.
DeleteYou just reminded me of my friends in the Greenfinches, did all the patrols the boys did, but carried no weapons, there's only one word for that - ballsy! At the time I never thought it strange, but writing it now it seems completely mental!
ReplyDeleteThe answer is, of course, YES they'll pay :-)
ReplyDeleteThose concerned about 'Girly Stuff' clearly have not spent time deployed alongside the Royal Marines!
ReplyDeleteHow do you know?
DeleteA well argued article Sir Humphrey and I totally agree with you.. Having read all the replies too I have two thoughts:
ReplyDeleteA. Women don’t have to be as good as the best men for there to be a net benefit. They simply have to be better than the worst men. However demanding the standards they are a minimum requirement. Pass the test and you can do the job.
B. It’s not going to fix the manpower shortage though, is it?
To answer B, I don't think it would add as much as a single extra Tom to a unit such as the Paras, but if they do get in, they definitely deserve to be there. But it is a bit of free publicity and shows the military in a positive light, so might encourage more people to think about the services as a career option.
Delete"They simply have to be better than the worst men"
DeleteThe British army + marines have less than 50,000 combat troops out of a population of 70million
You're suggesting that the 50k are the top men in the 70m. They're not. Above average physical fitness for a man is all that's required to get into a line infantry unit, nothing superhuman. The old combat fitness test used to be run by a woman PTI at one unit I was next to, she paced the men round the course (carrying the required weight obviously).
DeleteIn running, male speeds are about 10% faster than female, a gap so great, world record holding women would fail to gain entry were they men.
ReplyDeleteIn strength based events, that difference is 25%
Now you can of course say that no longer matters, but the enemy has a vote too.
What will army policy be?
Those capable (men) break out and leave those incapable (women) behind, or will the entire platoon/company/battalion await encirclement and capture?
Army policy will remain fight and win.
DeleteIn a specific tactical situation the unit will move at the speed of the slowest member, unless a tactical decision is made to leave them. Who makes up that slowest person isn't dependent on gender, if you have wounded then they will probably be it, likewise for the sick, or the person carrying the most weight. You work as a team, today you're the star leading the charge, tomorrow you have your mates carrying you because you went over your ankle in the dark. This doesn't change because you have women in the unit.
Your analysis fails because you are comparing averages, the average woman will be weaker than the average man (and the elite athlete man will be better than the elite athlete woman) but the average woman isn't going to get past selection, it will be the woman who meets the criteria, the same as a man. An exception woman will get into a line infantry unit, where as a slightly above average man would, but it's the same result, they will be on a par when they are in the unit.
"Army policy will remain fight and win."
DeleteI'm sure officer Barbie is more than capable of beating a Russian armoured division single handed....
"Who makes up that slowest person isn't dependent on gender"
Except it is
"This doesn't change because you have women in the unit."
Except it does, because women can carry 25% less, 10% slower, with 8x the injury rate.
"Your analysis fails because you are comparing averages, the average woman will be weaker than the average man (and the elite athlete man will be better than the elite athlete woman) but the average woman isn't going to get past selection, it will be the woman who meets the criteria, the same as a man. An exception woman will get into a line infantry unit, where as a slightly above average man would, but it's the same result, they will be on a par when they are in the unit."
As I said, standards will lowered until enough women can pass.
You keep stating standards will be lowered but offer no evidence and directly contradict what the MoD explicitly states.
DeleteThe rest of your comment relies on the failed argument about averages, yes your figures are probably correct but they are completely irrelevant, it's not the average woman who is going to be let into the unit.
If the Premier League were opened to women in the name of equality, i.e. there existed an expectation and demand that female players would be in the first eleven of all Premier League teams, would football standards drop?
Delete@Fruit
Delete"You keep stating standards will be lowered but offer no evidence and directly contradict what the MoD explicitly states."
"You're comparing oranges and apples, the new PES is objectively what's required to do the job based on experience of recent conflicts."
The new PES is easier than the old PES.
You agree with this.
My First Comment
""Why will standards be dropped? Sorry, not at all obvious."
Because it's what has happened in every specialism opened to women in every army in the world.
The role is opened to women, no women pass selection, standards are found to be "unrealistic in regards to modern soldiering", new standards are created, women pass, combat effectiveness drops precipitously."Why will standards be dropped? Sorry, not at all obvious."
Because it's what has happened in every specialism opened to women in every army in the world.
The role is opened to women, no women pass selection, standards are found to be "unrealistic in regards to modern soldiering", new standards are created, women pass, combat effectiveness drops precipitously."
The physical standards will be lowered to whatever level is required to get sufficient women to pass, and whatever level that is will be justified as "the requirements of modern soldiering"
Domo: Was there a cut and paste problem with this comment, seems a bit all over the shop? I'll address the points, if I've misunderstood them, please shout.
DeleteI didn't say I agreed the PES was easier than the CFT, I don't know where you got this from. They are two different things, hence my you don't compare apples with oranges comment.
Again you keep stating that women won't pass the requirements for the job, so the MoD will change them. Despite me asking where you are getting this from, you offer no evidence to support, where as I can point to the MoD saying they won't do so.
David Suarez: If combat were like athletic competition then you might have a point, a team made up of elite level women would expect to lose to a team made of elite level men, but it's not. We don't throw javelin or swing swords to kill the enemy, we use guns, rockets, grenades, call in artillery or air strikes or in extremis push with a bayonet. If you have physical and psychological strength to meet the requirements then you are good enough to serve in the role.
Delete@fruit
Delete"Anonymous: 'Have another look at the run time. It's 80% of the length in a longer time. Tabbing requirements are also much easier to complete. ' You're comparing oranges and apples, the new PES is objectively what's required to do the job based on experience of recent conflicts."
The new standard run is shorter and slower than the old one.
Agree or disagree?
A shorter slower run is a lesser standard
Agree or disagree?
Physical standards have been cut at the same time as an effort to increase female participation.
Agree or disagree?
I'm aware I'm repeating myself, but you're comparing two different tests. You have cherry picked one part of it and said this is shorter therefore the test is easier. If that was the only element of the test, then you would be correct. Why don't you illuminate the discussion by putting the full set of the tests side by side?
DeleteYou insinuate the PES is being introduced to make it easier for women to get into the infantry but the test is gender neutral and has been introduced following experience of what actually matters in conflict, from Afghan and Iraq. The test accurately reflects what an infantry soldier, and other trades, expects to do in a combat situation. You're free to say it undervalues walking with weight, but that's a value judgement about what sort of conflict we expect to fight in the future and others who serve disagree with you, hence the changes to that part of the test.
Please be aware changes to physical tests have happened many times over the years. There's a continual back and firth in sentiment between walking with weight and upper body strength, for example. If you emphasis one you lose some of the other. Post Falklands it was tab everywhere, post GW1 it was cardiovascular intensive sprints because armour carried you to the objective. One of the good things about the army's conservativism is that it never allows you to swing too far in any direction.
"You insinuate the PES is being introduced to make it easier for women to get into the infantry but the test is gender neutral and has been introduced following experience of what actually matters in conflict, from Afghan and Iraq. The test accurately reflects what an infantry soldier, and other trades, expects to do in a combat situation"
DeleteI would be fascinated to see how "lessons learned" during a war comprised almost entirely of foot patrols under heavy load led to the belief that patrolling quickly under load for long distances is no longer necessary.
There were two conflicts, Iraq patrols featured armour extensively. The experiences of Afghan in particular was that loading more and more weight onto soldiers resulted in their capability falling away, what one officer called reducing troops to a tactical waddle. There is an effort to lose the weight and change tactical responses to the situation which I think is the right response.
DeleteMorning
ReplyDeleteWe have a simple ethos
If you can meet the standard you can do the job, we don’t care about colour, creed, religious affiliation or background.
As the advert says - 99.9% need not apply, those that do will find all are treated equal - one common goal, to achieve the standard - pass the test and embrace the spirit.
Naked bar just took a turn for the interesting though
Cheers
Believe me the streaking after the regimental dinner is even more fun!
DeleteLee, there will be a demand that women be integrated into front line forces. Standards will have to be dropped to meet that demand. No other way is possible because women are not men, they do not have the physical capacities of men *and* they change in-group bonding for the worse.
DeleteI'll repeat myself: this is what happens when ideology takes hold of society. The ideological commitment to equality (of outcome) inevitably leads to a lowering of standards.
David, this conversation is like watching the washing machine on a spin cycle, you keep stating this, that and other will happen, but offer nothing to back it up. Lets put something concrete up for a test, how about in 2 years from now the Army's physical fitness test will have been significantly eased to increase the pass rate. If it has, then I was wrong, if it hasn't then you are wrong. I'll leave you to define what counts as a significant easing of the test.
Delete"Lets put something concrete up for a test, how about in 2 years from now the Army's physical fitness test will have been significantly eased to increase the pass rate."
DeleteIt already has been!!!!
That's not what David believes - 'Standards will have to be dropped to meet that demand.' A statement about the future, I'm not sure how it can be read any other way?
DeleteGood evening David
DeleteI disagree fundamentally with your view that standards will have to drop to allow women to serve, as you define, in the front line forces.
Women have served in the front line forces for many years, the photos Sir H has kindly provided in his blog clearly show this.
The infantry, defined as those that face the enemy on foot, is the last part of the military that has allowed women to serve within it. You will notice that I have not mentioned those SF services that have been mentioned above because, I am afraid to inform you, women has served side by side with their male counterparts for some years now - admittedly their method of getting there was different but the standard was the same.
The infantry is built on trust, trust that the individual next to you is as competent and as trained as you are. They can do the things you can do, they have been trained in the same way and passed the same tests you have. To trust you have to respect, not necessarily like but respect the person next to you as someone who has been through the same as you have.
Standards are there for a reason, not to prove that we have supermen or superwomen but to prove that the adversity we expect to put our infantry through to achieve the aim that they are sufficiently robust enough to think and fight.
I’m married with 3 children and a wife, my natural role is to protect and defend, however I would never deny my wife’s right to do the same as me, never say she is not able enough - lower the standard as you state.
I am very lucky that I was, I believe trained by the very best HMG has to offer. I also believe that they do not care what turns up at their door as long as PRMC is passed and you show the right spirit to pass the course. It’s going to be bumpy at first, messing will be interesting and banter will be rough (the gronk board will have a whole new dimension added to it) but life will go on, the military will adapt - it will be better for it.
Cheers
I think it's a good suggestion. The Army website says the previous test hadn't changed for 20 years.
DeleteMy comment about two years was addressing the point that people are suggesting the standards will be lowered as a result of the decision to allow women into close combat roles.
Actually the website says policy hasn't changed for 20 years, that leaves open the possibility the tests have.
DeleteI'd be interested to know of the commentors' opinions of Norwegian, Israeli, Danish and Dutch (to name a few) policies of allowing women to serve in front line infantry units. They are all well respected institutions, with high training standards and effectiveness. Women from these armies have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as far as I'm aware have done well. As an aside I believe that, among others, the Dutch allow women into the marines, but none have so far passed basic training. This rather contradicts assertions here that standards automatically drop to meet quotas wherever women have been allowed in...
DeleteIf other countries actually have succeeded in integrating women, it rather disproves the argument that we can't, doesn't it..?
I hadn't realised until I started reading more about this but apparently 12 women have passed the US Army Rangers course. Has the course been made easier to accommodate women, not as far as I was aware.
DeleteThus standards will drop thing has been done to death, yes it will take exceptional women to pass, but can anyone here say that the Jessica Ennis-Hills of world couldn't pass infantry training?
Physical standards being dropped and gender inclusion being expanded are not necessarily related. Having a high minimum fitness standard is all fine and well if you have a surplus of fitter candidates to call on to help fill the ranks, but we all know that's not the case. Especially with the decision now to kick out personnel after a single failed drug test, which will mean another 500+ / year to find to replace the extra personnel lost before you even start to get into recovering some of the backlog.
DeleteDiscounting the views of retired service personell as has been's and dinosaurs is pretty offensive. The reason the military gets into such shit is because lessons need to be re-learned after having been lost. Discounting the hard won views of service people with vital combat experience is a huge mistake.
ReplyDeleteAnyone that's ever been involved with heavy fighting knows its not for woman, its as simple as that.
The decision has been made by service personnel, some of whom will have had combat experience.
DeleteThe Soviet army used women in combat in the Second World war and they saw some of the heaviest fighting ever seen, look up Manshuk Mametova for an example. Women have fought and are fighting, it's a feature of the culture that they come from, not a psychological law.
As an aside, in my opinion, it's not we forget lessons, it's we try to fight the last war.
The components of fitness are suppleness, stamina, strength and speed. In suppleness, most women out-perform men. However, suppleness is irrelevant to the infantry soldier. The infantry soldier requires stamina, strength and speed and probably in that order. In these, the average fitness of the top 25% of women is lower than the average fitness of the bottom 25% of men. Why should the British military be required to seek recruits from a significantly less suitable target group than they do today? Of course, there are some statistical female outliers that meet standards but many ordinary women will fail to find the exceptional.
ReplyDeleteI believe the priorities for this policy should be:
1) Combat Effectiveness,
2) Duty of Care
3) Equality of Opportunity.
The two constraints are cost and risk. One might claim that with good management each principle can be realised at acceptable cost and risk. In the real world such an ideal outcome.
A main threat to UK national interest for the foreseeable future is from religious fundamentalists. The government will try to avoid ground combat to combat this but there are scenarios where it is unavoidable. In ground operations GCC troops are inherently “prone to capture”. The religious fundamentalist enemy has little respect for male prisoners but female military captives may well suffer more because of their attitudes to women. Having women in GCC roles will significantly increase the probability of an enemy taking female prisoners. Will female GCC troops be withdrawn from combat situations where the enemy holds religious fundamentalist beliefs? Is the MOD geared up for GCC women being taken captive, being used as hostages, abused, tortured, executed and this being filmed and posted on the Internet? Will female soldiers be prepared for greater risks in captivity?
There are assurances on standards and not implementing quotas. If, after a few years, only a small number of females have been recruited into GCC roles, will this really satisfy politicians in thrall to progressive politics who seek equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity?
The biggest average physical variance between men and women is upper body strength. The IRH proposes extra strength exercises be incorporated into training. So:
• If additional upper body training is introduced will additional time and funding be made available or other training reduced?
• Will not the additional upper body training, if also available to male recruits, increase the difference between males and females because of the musculoskeletal and hormonal advantages males possess in respect of strength?
• If additional upper body training is not also available to male recruits will this constitute gender discrimination?
There is less average physical variance between men and women in lower body strength but research shows the majority of women do significantly less well than men when marching long distances under load. So:
• Will additional endurance training be given to women to ensure that they can march long distances under load?
• Will not any additional endurance training, if also available to male recruits, actually increase the difference between males and females because of the musculoskeletal, lung capacity and hormonal advantages males possess in respect of stamina and speed?
• If additional endurance training is not also available to male recruits will this constitute gender discrimination?
Has the unintended consequence on the recruiting and retention of male GCC soldiers been considered? If male soldiers see a lowering in standards and increase in risk they could vote with their feet. Will loss of male GCC soldiers outweigh gains in female GCC soldiers?
Perhaps women are suited to GCC at reasonable cost, there will be no impact on combat effectiveness and there will be no standards reduction. Or perhaps risks, costs and physiological facts cannot be made subject to the sociological preferences of our time. If the policy impacts on battle winning capabilities, will it be terminated?
Hi Adrian, interesting post. Do you have a link to the research that states the bottom 25% of men is better than the top 25% of women? Is this based on the full population, because intuitively it feels unlikely that a 25% which includes the infirm, elderly and morbidly obese would still be better than a 25% which includes the young, fit gym goers and sports players.
DeleteOn the point about how will the public react to women being taken prisoner I guess we won't know until it happens, but if you look at the responses to the death of Capt. Lisa Head, I didn't see any widespread calls for women to be removed from dangerous activities, for most part the response seems to be if you sign up for the job you know the dangers. In some ways it's the same as the grenade and shooting of two female police officers in Manchester, the response wasn't remove women from the beat, it was what a cowardly act and condemning the criminal who did it.
DeleteIf it's being taking prisoner which is the essential difference which changes the publics perception of women in the forces, then we are already at risk. Women can be captured in the current support roles and more widely we have seen a foiled plot to capture and behead a Muslim soldier in the streets of the UK.
On this point, 'If, after a few years, only a small number of females have been recruited into GCC roles, will this really satisfy politicians in thrall to progressive politics who seek equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity?' - I'm no expert, but those politicians most in favour of equality seem to be on the left politically, who tend not to be pro-military, so not likely to raise this up the political agenda. If you look at firefighters, I can't recall a single campaign to boost numbers of women, it was the principle that women could serve equally in the role that mattered, not the numbers who did.
DeleteI think the point about physical training is that as long as the training is available to all and the result is that people meet the minimum there is no discrimination. Some men require more time/effort to meet standards, my expectation is that a higher proportion of women will need longer/more effort to reach standard, but the amount of training is dependent on the individual.
DeleteIn all of this we have focused on the negative, but let's remember the positive, women live longer for a reason, physiologically they are healthier than men. There are few free lunches in nature, the advantages that men get come with a cost, in one sense they are the weaker sex.
big problem with females in the military is that they disrupt male bonding. People in the military die for their friends. They don't die for a cause or the nation or whatever else is being fought for, They die for their friends. Disrupting male bonding means fewer are willing to die for their friends if they don't consider those in the unit friends because of the disruption of male bonding which happens when females are present in combat and in training. All female or all male units have been successful in Russian studies, but don't mix males and females in training/combat/air combat units.
ReplyDeleteCould you share these Russian studies? If it's a reference to the all female bomber units employed during the second world war, they weren't all female.
DeleteThe comment about male bonding depends on the cultural background. Most soldiers in the UK went to mixed sex schools, so are used to working in mixed teams. You fight for your comrades, not just the ones you like.
Females do not have the bone density of
ReplyDeletemales and get stress fractures easily and could not even carry the rifle and backpack at the USMA (West Point) without getting stress fractures so that had to be modified as is so much for females to pass requirements.
In 1948, Israel had males and females in the IDF equal in combat and that caused the deaths of males to soar as they compromised their missions to protect the women and the Arabs fought harder to avoid being defeated by females in battle. It was too costly in lives to continue.
The comment about the 1948 war doesn't make sense, the IDF won a war external intelligence agencies thought they would lose and with less combat losses than the all male opposition. How is that an argument against women fighting along side men? Surely it shows the opposite?
DeleteAwful debate and stereotype...
ReplyDeleteOne of the immediate problems is reference to Dinosaurs etc. That is as poor as objecting to women.
But a sensible debate is worthwhile.
Concerns are to be had:
1: pregnancy does not meet notice period rules
2: making rules on pregnancy is “against citizens rights”
3: confidence of enemy. I asked a number of males and all felt even though enemy was trained, if it was female they would have a confidence boost.
4: Ego. Males do not like being beaten, will they up the game ?
5: Many have stated that load bearing is damaging to all, we have no results to show whether this could be a problem later on. (Recall articles on marching and damage to body due to size of stride)
These are valid points and are worth consideration prior to slandering.
I for one feel that an inevitable drop in standards will occur. I obviously then am a dinosaur.
But I also think this is a poor piece of blogging that is following and trying to rationalise and accept lower numbers and standards.
I also know many historical references of female warriors. But I know a well equipped, trained male fighting force does have ascendency.
I will also object to the implicit, serving members are ok with it. Many feel the elite, is being eroded.
Must wander of and eat myself a veggieasaur
Points 1 and 2 aren't true.
DeletePoint 3 and 4 are the same argument. How do you know the person who shot you from 300 metres was a woman and would it prevent you from dying?
Point 5. We have evidence that women suffer injuries at higher ratios, but that isn't sufficient reason to exclude all women. Just because a group is at higher chance of a negative thing happening, doesn't mean you can ban all members of that group, unless the ratio is so high that it's close to certain and nothing can be done to mitigate it. Neither is true in this case.
There is a really important discussion to be had about the combat loads that all personnel are being asked to carry and the effect this is having on injuries.
The standards will drop thing really has been done to death. If you have evidence show it, otherwise it's just an opinion. The MoD has quantified what is required to do the job and said that anyone who passes is capable, that seems to me to be a position which would legally be difficult to walk back from.
The only standards I would keep are technical or vocational ones. Engineers need to engineer. Cooks need to be able to cook. That sort of thing. And I think the fire services have shown the way forward now they have watch managers etc. Do away with silly names for ranks. And all the marching and saluting too as it is just silly. The MoD should interview those who work in call centres and similar to ascertain the correct working environment for today's young recruit. Uniforms are silly too around barracks, why not let them wear normal clothes? In my opinion the Germans didn't go far enough with their reforms when they set up their new army, we could correct that and go even further. We should be aiming for that citizen militia vibe like the early Israeli forces. Though I think shooting at foreigners is just xenophobic.
ReplyDelete"The only standards I would keep are technical or vocational"
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to Esprit d’corps ?
"Point 3 and 4 are the same argument. How do you know the person who shot you from 300 metres was a woman and would it prevent you from dying?"
presume that that was meant to be serious that you really believe the need to see the other person to give a psychological lift and stamina
The point is that a bullet entering your body is going to have the same effect, whether the finger on the trigger was male or female. Would you be boosted by the thought that they may have women in the infantry on the other side? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure when shells start raining down and you hear the sound of armour manoeuvring that warm fussy feeling is going to dissipate very quickly.
DeleteA gentleman requested sources regarding mixedIsraeli units
ReplyDeletedon't have any off hand
news clippings will do a bit:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149820
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/251566
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/172549
Thanks for these, it was the Russian studies you mentioned which I was interested in. I have read the news clippings and would say two things. Firstly the clippings are a statement from one special interest group to promote their cause. When you look at the facts in the articles, there are hardly any. The statement about the differing injuries is already well known and something which can be and is being mitigated as the IDF spokesperson said.
DeleteSecondly, there is a big difference between the UK volunteer army with women joining overwhelmingly male units (and achieving their standards) and the conscript, mixed but female majority infantry units the I Army operates. The short period of training and rapid turnover (24 - 36 months service) doesn't allow for troops to condition themselves properly.
Given the recruiting problems the only bar to a trade should be lacking academic qualifications. And the forces should follow the fire service and do away all those silly ranks and introduce tiers of management. Drill is silly too and needs the chop. I think enthusiasm should count more than physical prowess.
ReplyDeleteA few years ago I recall watching a fly on the wall documentary about HMS Bulwark in the Indian Ocean. The OOW spotted a floating corpse. This was recovered by the seaboat, for return to India. Half of the seaboat's crew were women. The corpse was bloated and putrid,having spent some time floating in hot sun.
ReplyDeleteOn return aboard, the girls in the seaboat crew were all in tears. The POMA (also a woman) basically said "there there, poor dears, it's OK to cry, go and have a nice lie-down".
Would I want to go to war with people like that in my steamer? No, thankyou.
Did they fail to accomplish what they were asked to do? Did the time taken to cry impact on their ability to do their work?
DeleteProbably not for that particular task, but what about their behaviour when the sailor next to them has been cut in half by a missile and is spilling guts over the deck? Navies are ultimately about violence, and violence demands the ability to switch off emotions and feeling.
DeleteSo they did the job then, but you are saying they won't do so in another situation? Ultimately you never know what the reaction will be to a truly catastrophic event until it happens, that applies both to men and women. You train to reduce the chance that you freeze but no training will ever fully replicate war.
DeleteWe dont know if they did the job, or if the lads did the job.
DeleteYes, you cant predict a person's reaction to extreme circumstances, but you can predict that people with higher emotional sensitivities will react differently to people with lower emotional sensitivities. As evidenced by the scenes we see in the documentary.
There's an implicit assumption on your part that women are more emotionally sensitive. I get that socially women are allowed/expected to be more emotional, but that's a social construct. When you see the example of the head of the London Fire Brigade saying that she was was saying encouraging word to her firefighters in the expectation that some of them wouldn't come back, then you realise there are situations and roles which permit people to stand outside those socially defined roles.
DeleteIt's an observation, not an assumption. Disciplined scientific research also reveals that there are biological underpinnings (hormone-related) and brain-structural underpinnings. That does not mean, of course, that all women are more emotional than all men - the groups overlap. If we could guarantee that there was an objective standard for emotional sensitivity that had to be met that would probably work, but I share earlier commenters scepticism that we could ever hold the line to that standard (as it would appear to make it much "harder" for girls to qualify).
DeleteIn practice, the risk here is not just failure to cope with extreme stress, but also the risk that reality is defined by how one "feels" about something, rather than how that something really "is". The gap between "feels" and "is" is safe when you are dealing with many problems, but not safe when you are dealing with hard physics and chemistry (as contained, say, within a Kinzhal flying towards you at Mach 5). The head of the London Fire Brigade would doubtless have said that she "felt" her firefighters were up to dealing with a tower block fire. But they were not. The first responders did NOT put out the initial fire, and did NOT notice that it had ignited the external cladding. Then they did NOT take the right actions (evacuate everyone) because they felt it was safer to keep people in their flats.
When we are presented with problems generated by physics and chemistry there is no place for feelings, only facts, data and numbers.
A female colleague who is a retired Royal Navy CPO was telling me about a leadership course she was on which involved a mixed group of men and women hiking around Dartmoor. The women could not keep up with the men. In the infantry in war, people who can't keep up might well get themselves and their colleagues killed. Perhaps we should remember that the purpose of the Armed Forces is to defend the country in war, not to tick boxes on the equality and diversity checklist.
ReplyDeleteThat's why the physical standards are there, to ensure anyone who is in the infantry can do the job, irrespective of gender.
DeleteI think there's a tendency to miss the point here. This isn't actually a debate about gender at all. It's about standards. If an individual meets the standards then great. If not, goodbye. Don't care who you are.
ReplyDeleteIn fact come to think of it I could mention a great number of male oppos who are less competent/good for morale/fit than various female oppos. Maybe we should bin them?
If the RM suddenly drop the standards for a green beret so they can get 50% women in then I promise I'll be just as angry as you bunch of misogynistic dinosaurs. However until that happens, any woman who passes the commando test as it stands has my utmost respect, as does any man.
ReplyDeleteA Russian Defector wrote in the early 90s that USSR poured millions of dollars and pounds in support of gender equality
[as well as LGBT] in Anglo American countries
the Russians consider it sporting to waste their money
Do you have a link to this report or source? Was the Russian talking about the military specifically or more generally about supporting campaign groups who protested against the 'establishment' such as those for racial equality?
Delete