tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post7280749036686428713..comments2024-03-20T12:03:26.126+00:00Comments on Thin Pinstriped Line: Withdrawing Harrier - taking the right decision, no matter how wrong it felt (Part 1)Sir Humphreyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-8025431953048826242017-12-04T22:57:51.325+00:002017-12-04T22:57:51.325+00:00The harrier was in a good state in 2009 as we were...The harrier was in a good state in 2009 as we were just finishing the 900million upgrade and had just signed a 600million spares package. Scrapping harrier saved the tax payer nothing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03714522740739483955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-89081142529479367252014-12-03T10:05:51.340+00:002014-12-03T10:05:51.340+00:00This story reminds me of the A-10. How many times ...This story reminds me of the A-10. How many times did they pull it and had to bring them back?<br />If it works, KEEP IT! (specially when it is relatively cheap to keep them)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-71579382207678760642012-09-08T18:53:54.559+01:002012-09-08T18:53:54.559+01:00Aye, ok chief. I'll leave you to it...Aye, ok chief. I'll leave you to it...Topmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-14756560058902355772012-09-08T17:10:23.569+01:002012-09-08T17:10:23.569+01:00Seems reasonably simple to me. Keep some form of f...Seems reasonably simple to me. Keep some form of fixed wing air cover at sea till the new carriers are ready.<br /><br />Won't cost a vast amount and will retain skills etc. The Harrier is one of the very few world beating inventions that Britain has ever come up with - unlike the Eurofighter that is basically a twin engined F16 <br /><br />BAE sets the agenda on what the UK CAN buy, they are not interested in developing the Harrier, so off into the sunset it goes.<br /><br />The MOD are masters at proving Black = White if it so suits them. Always note that politicians are rarely interested in the detail of defence issues, To them it's just a budget meeting. <br /><br />The mandarins say we can't do it minister in true Sir Humphrey style and as they are the experts, who is going to question that?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-32351882366428917372012-09-08T16:13:30.795+01:002012-09-08T16:13:30.795+01:00If defence matters where so simple eh...?If defence matters where so simple eh...?Topmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-81051681729212508382012-09-08T13:27:04.195+01:002012-09-08T13:27:04.195+01:00Same anonymous - according to Reuters the asking p...Same anonymous - according to Reuters the asking price was $180 million for 72.<br /><br />I assumed anyone interested could use google. Again using google - lazy I know - one Eurofighter cost 90 million Euro, for a new one.<br /><br />But of course we can't afford the Harriers, mmmm<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-90642531124768197752012-09-07T20:39:46.080+01:002012-09-07T20:39:46.080+01:00Well (assuming it's the same Anonymous) you se...Well (assuming it's the same Anonymous) you seem to know, otherwise you wouldn't be calling it a 'give away'.<br /><br />Exactly an agreement a price both parties are happy with, not sure where all this talk of a 'giveaway' comes from. Topmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-20074216120272579712012-09-07T19:32:21.399+01:002012-09-07T19:32:21.399+01:00You tell me, but I'm sure the US would pay wha...You tell me, but I'm sure the US would pay whatever the obsequious mandarins at the MOD think they can shift the stock at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-75249110091101847332012-09-06T13:25:17.869+01:002012-09-06T13:25:17.869+01:00'Care to explain the great Harrier give away t...'Care to explain the great Harrier give away to the US recently?'<br /><br />'Give away', why what's the going rate for 2nd hand Harriers?Topmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-71264203691604306512012-09-04T23:15:59.563+01:002012-09-04T23:15:59.563+01:00It is interesting that you characterise, probably ...It is interesting that you characterise, probably correctly, that the removal of Harrier was the most contentious decision to come out of the SDSR instead of the loss of Nimrod, Sentinel, significant reduction in manpower etc all whilst trying to convince everyone there would be no strategic shrinkage.<br /><br />By moving to the JOINT force concept in preparation for the JOINT combat aircraft in a JOINT training and support function it allowed the creation of a homogeneous force that can operate either at sea or land, thus removing the distinction between the two.<br /><br />Operating from CVF with JCA is expressly designed to be no different than operating from Kandahar.<br /><br />This is the whole point of it, removal of differences through technology, organisation and logistics will then force the big question to be asked.<br /><br />That big question is...<br /><br />Why in the context of a reducing defence vote and increasing defence cost base do I as a nation need two providers of the same capability.<br /><br />It is basic organisational common sense to reduce duplication and done the world over.<br /> <br />If there are differences between those two providers who provide near identical outputs they had better have a bloody good answer because the simple and hard nosed reality is we can't avoid empires built on slivers of 'but we are different'Think Defencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14674093099627997373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-25837862749156575152012-09-03T19:25:58.194+01:002012-09-03T19:25:58.194+01:00Can't see any logical explanation as to why t...Can't see any logical explanation as to why the Spanish and Italians can still operate carrier capable a/c with smaller budgets where we cannot, except politics and incompetence of course.<br /><br />The whole episode highlights to me the need for seperate FAA squadrons with budgets directly from the RN.<br /><br />Also, I would like to know if the Tornado had been scrapped, could the money have been found to upgrade the Typhoon earlier?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-15376077555480396012012-09-03T17:34:38.507+01:002012-09-03T17:34:38.507+01:00Dear on dear Sir Hunphrey, I would not like to be ...Dear on dear Sir Hunphrey, I would not like to be at your next lodge meeting if Sharkey Ward turns up as a guest!<br /><br />You cannot possibly argue that having no organic air power over at least a 10 year period is a good thing. The skills for the F35 will have to be built up from scratch as those with the experience are likely to be at the 19th hole of the golf club by the time we ever see a British fixed wing aircraft at sea.<br /><br />Care to explain the great Harrier give away to the US recently? They seem to think the aircraft was far from the scrap heap. <br /><br />Sharkey's views on the role of the RAF do ring true, the Typhoon Tranche Three scandal is a case in point. As it appears Typhoon Tranche One is not up to the job, the RAF now needs 'Three' <br /><br />I know the well worn argument for keeping BAE shareholders in the gravy but this is becoming a bit of an expensive joke don't you think? <br /><br />A fraction of the of the money lavished on the Typhoon, could easily have kept the Harriers flaying. The Spanish recently (2010) signed an upgrade contact with EADS for their AV 8B's <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-64444412959927524352012-09-03T15:53:25.830+01:002012-09-03T15:53:25.830+01:00Fascinating insight. Certainly those low numbers (...Fascinating insight. Certainly those low numbers (4 aircraft) to sustain capability does look like vanity flying. However, a concern for me now is that the JSF fleet from the new carriers is slated as 12 aircraft. Given that the Invincible/Illustrious/Indomitable "Through Deck Cruisers" (...) in the end were capable of carrying this number (or near it?), one wonders if the new carriers were over-sized in their design or whether we intend ultimately to fly the proposed 40 craft from them. <br /><br />I can't help but read the sub-text to this article: Operation Herrick seems to have cost us our carrier fleet and, dare I say it, our navy. The price we pay for fighting other people's wars appears to be the sacrifice of our own capability.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-38786063449817726732012-09-03T10:40:34.908+01:002012-09-03T10:40:34.908+01:00As Walter from the Dude said
'You are enterin...As Walter from the Dude said<br /><br />'You are entering a world of pain'<br /><br />Think Defencehttp://www.thinkdefence.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-3005202067697589912012-09-02T20:51:59.003+01:002012-09-02T20:51:59.003+01:00I remember you mentioning it elsewhere.
IMVHO if w...I remember you mentioning it elsewhere.<br />IMVHO if we had to lose one of them (and I'd have preferred to keep both) than Tornado wins.<br /><br /> I look forward to reading the next part.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-62921838695467815242012-09-02T19:21:46.223+01:002012-09-02T19:21:46.223+01:00Interesting read and a good touch of reality to th...Interesting read and a good touch of reality to the Harrier crowd. Though FA2 was more at risk than you amentioned - wasn't just the engine issue - at the time of the 2006 decision.<br /><br />Looking forward to the next installment, though undoubtedly it'll attract some silly comments.<br />mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-23043482321919657682012-09-02T19:13:16.954+01:002012-09-02T19:13:16.954+01:00Quite correct - the Tornado issue will be touched ...Quite correct - the Tornado issue will be touched on in the next part. Sir Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-75228225293259464722012-09-02T19:12:53.193+01:002012-09-02T19:12:53.193+01:00Further to ATGs comments - firstly, good point on ...Further to ATGs comments - firstly, good point on the MR2/SAR transfer - I forgot about that. It was a very short lived experiment, and you are right in pointing out that it wasn't the RAFs finest hour. <br />For Arch - the points to remember are that for any nation (and this isnt a case of the UK being useless), the majority of a fighter fleet will never be deployed at one time. <br />From the fleet of 70 aircraft, we ran 3 x front line squadrons, initially of 12, and then 9 aircraft. There was an OCU of 12-15 aircraft and various others on trials establishments. So, roughly 40 aircraft were on the 'front line'. The remainder were allocated to either maintenance, storage, upgrades or other work. Part of the challenge is to even out airframe usage, so that you dont find your aircraft all running out of hours at once. The aim is to spread airframe use around a bit, so you have a long term fleet. <br />More broadly, at the time, to sustain a det of 6 aircraft would need 3 rotations per year, each doing 4 month tours. So thats three sets of pilots, maintainers, ground crew and so on. When you realise you need more pilots than airframes to allow sleep and rest, you quickly realise that to sustain a single sub sqns worth of deployment, you need a sqns worth of crew to do it. <br />Rotate that three times per year, and suddenly you've tied up the entire harrier force to deployment in Afghanistan in one year. If you want to put more than 6 into Afghanistan then watch as you run out of the ability to sustain that beyond a short haul. Sir Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-31514404051924818392012-09-02T17:40:59.658+01:002012-09-02T17:40:59.658+01:00Very interesting Sir Humphrey. I will wait for par...Very interesting Sir Humphrey. I will wait for part two before commenting. mick 346https://www.blogger.com/profile/03777249489229912370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-1652446376716349532012-09-02T17:33:18.537+01:002012-09-02T17:33:18.537+01:00I think it was a tragic shame that Harrier got the...I think it was a tragic shame that Harrier got the chop. However it was the best of a bad set of decisions facing the MOD.<br />As I understand it they were faced with either chopping the Tornado, or Harrier and Tornado had more useful capabilities.<br /><br />I'm quietly hopeful that in a few years that the F-35B will bring about a regeneration of RN fixed wing aviation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-32352180419253378692012-09-02T16:12:18.332+01:002012-09-02T16:12:18.332+01:00*Father's Brother. I thought that looked wron...*Father's Brother. I thought that looked wrong when I wrote it!Alfred_the_Greatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-34833719976513492552012-09-02T16:11:14.425+01:002012-09-02T16:11:14.425+01:00I would presume a combination of 3 x Front Line GR...I would presume a combination of 3 x Front Line GR7 squadrons*, an OCU, aircraft in depth maintenance plus a proportion of the GR7s unavailable because they were being sent away for upgrade to GR9 would quickly add up to around 70. Add in a couple destroyed/seriously damaged in Afg and Robert is your Brother's Brother.<br /><br />The transition to AOC 3 Gp wasn't quite as neat you outlined - MR2 and RAF SAR were also transferred to that group, leading in effect to a 'Maritime Command' of the RAF that was a true mix of Dark and Light Blue. In a particularly nifty bit of RAF Staff Work, they 'won' the funding for this 2* led organisation and within 36 months re-organised enough to force the RN out and replace them in toto with a pure Light Blue force organisation. It is shit like that that a) make the RN look stupid and b) make us not trust them!<br /><br />I have to say I'm very impressed that you are allowing comments on this post...... <br /><br /><br />*Remember, to produce a Sqn with 9 a/c ready you probably need 11 or so on the Sqn's books to allow for aircraft rotation and Sqn level maintenance. Alfred_the_Greatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-4024434828047195782012-09-02T15:46:15.878+01:002012-09-02T15:46:15.878+01:00Allow me to rush this in before you write Part 2.
...Allow me to rush this in before you write Part 2.<br /><br />Can you explain (or link to something where you or someone else did) the 3:1 ratio part, or how it was possible that despite having SEVENTY airframes (even if not all were at full readiness), a mere SIX deployed fighters could be such a strain. We are talking 10:1 ratios here!arkhangelskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15247250672432027166noreply@blogger.com