tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post2631420619194910863..comments2024-03-20T12:03:26.126+00:00Comments on Thin Pinstriped Line: This is the Captain(s) of Your Ship Speaking... Why there are 260 Captains in the Royal Navy todaySir Humphreyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-84977005674115451212013-11-03T08:57:42.202+00:002013-11-03T08:57:42.202+00:00In the real world just because you have director o...In the real world just because you have director or regional director or regional sales director doesn't necessarily make you a director. Customers like to feel they are dealing with someone important. Despite the name there are few actual directors. The clue is in the pay usually - directors pay has to be in the notes to the accounts, whilst people that are called directors doesn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-19847310194714481652013-10-31T11:49:59.967+00:002013-10-31T11:49:59.967+00:00TrT
I often used to issue out 'Senior' in...TrT<br /><br />I often used to issue out 'Senior' in a job title when I deemed a member of staff a cut above the rest but not right for a Manager's role. This was especially true for my Senior Financial Accountant!!!! Perhaps we worked together LOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-43309408562521847362013-10-30T11:48:40.070+00:002013-10-30T11:48:40.070+00:00"How many Captains without ships did Charles ..."How many Captains without ships did Charles Howards Navy have? Or Nelsons Navy? Or Fishers?"<br /><br />At a guess - hundreds. Read any account of Nelson's navy and you'll find references to captains on half pay - not only didn't they have ships, they didn't have any jobs at all, and were still drawing a salary. You couldn't fire officers back then...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-8220886543776265122013-10-30T11:39:48.400+00:002013-10-30T11:39:48.400+00:00"A Captain commands a warship, a Colonel comm..."A Captain commands a warship, a Colonel commands a battalion, a wing commander commands a wing."<br /><br />Well, one out of three right isn't bad. In fact a battalion CO will be a lieutenant-colonel, and has been since about the eighteenth century, and a wing will normally be commanded by a group captain, which is confusing, I know, but it's been that way since the 1940s. ajaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-51816816462858424162013-10-27T23:49:03.840+00:002013-10-27T23:49:03.840+00:00TrT
I'd happily agree that any organisation wh...TrT<br />I'd happily agree that any organisation where one in 9 are 'director level' - which equates to 2 star in military terminology - is grossly top heavy. As of April the Armed forces had 134 officers of that rank out of about 171,000, as well as about 1,400 OF5/6. And yes, 'leaner than' is not the same as 'lean', but it is nonetheless valid in terms of prioritisation. And bearing in mind that the leaner you are, the less resilience you have to cope with the unexpected if the relevant skills aren't available elsewhere.<br /><br />I'm not enough of a naval historian to offer an informed view on the compostion of the Navy of 400, 200 and 100 years' past. Given the changes in warfare, technology and society over that period I suspect they had, relatively speaking, a smaller proportion of officers. For those same reasons I'm dubious about how relevant such comparisons are to the present, but I'm open to argument supported by evidence. <br /><br />And should you be a British citizen, have you considered raising with your MP, the Public Accounts Committee, the National Audit Office, or the media the inefficiency and/or incompetence you say you see in whichever organisation it is you're dealing with? All would, I am sure, be delighted to receive it and follow up, thereby at least possibly improving the efficeincy and effectivenss of public administration in the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-19131658833272623062013-10-27T18:24:13.298+00:002013-10-27T18:24:13.298+00:00Anon
I'm currently looting a public sector org...Anon<br />I'm currently looting a public sector organisation where one in nine staff are "director" level.<br />Saying "defence is leaner than....." is very different from "defence is lean"<br /><br />I ask again<br />"How many Captains without ships did Charles Howards Navy have?<br />Or Nelsons Navy? Or Fishers?"<br /><br />We're replacing real experts, men who have spent ten years at sea on a destroyer, with fantasists who have spent 6 months at sea on a destroyer, and ten years writing papers on the proper employment of Destroyers*<br /><br /><br />*I wouldnt enforce it strictly, but you've got to wonder if it doesnt make sense for officers to serve most of their career on one sort of vessel.TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-3299006367437254792013-10-26T23:20:55.641+01:002013-10-26T23:20:55.641+01:00No, of course we don't need a captain in charg...No, of course we don't need a captain in charge of paperclips. That's why we don't have any, The OF5s and up I know have fairly demanding jobs (albeit not at the same level as when in operational command). I'm sure you could probably crawl around and find some posts that don't need an OF5+ (quite possibly in some cases because it could be done perfectly well by a civil servant for about half the cost, but let's not go there today). But if you're looking around for lavish senior management structures in the public sector to cut, I wouldn't start in Defence, which the stats suggest is actually fairly lean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-66248798065453363092013-10-26T11:01:07.455+01:002013-10-26T11:01:07.455+01:00Do we need a Captain in charge of paperclips?
I...Do we need a Captain in charge of paperclips?<br />I'm sure the Captains of paperclips and tip ex are thoroughly decent hard working chaps. But do they increase the ability of the Navy to fight a war?<br /><br />How many Captains without ships did Charles Howards Navy have?<br />Or Nelsons Navy? Or Fishers?TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-41647525038809975182013-10-25T23:29:25.549+01:002013-10-25T23:29:25.549+01:00And when we drastically cut the number of admirals...And when we drastically cut the number of admirals/captains/generals/brigadiers/colonels etc and fnd that the work they were doing still has to be done, but is now being done by more junior people who we haven't adequately trained and aren't properly renumerating for the responsibility, what then? Buy in consultants?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-74629507392642553632013-10-24T17:57:31.237+01:002013-10-24T17:57:31.237+01:00There is a perception, probably based in reality, ...There is a perception, probably based in reality, that when the axe falls it falls on the lower ranks and on equipment, but not if it can be at all helped on those with scrambled egg on their hats.<br />It is quite absurd, from a PR point of view, to have more chiefs than wigwams for them to abide in.<br />The UK is trapped in the post war conundrum - that of being torn between the modern world, modern budgets, the reality that we always radically, perhaps even viciously, downsize between major conflicts and the perception, supported by the media, of 'the Forces that won WW2' with its visions of of hundreds of ships, fields full of armour and skies full of planes. Try to tell people that numbers of units and size of guns is no longer an indication of ability to deal damage and their minds shut down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-23717213043336720672013-10-24T17:28:53.491+01:002013-10-24T17:28:53.491+01:00It is not so much a matter of being top-heavy or n...It is not so much a matter of being top-heavy or not in terms of percent promoted as the numbers in relation to opportunity. To take an analogy, the best pilot in the Iranian Air Force may well be less proficient than even a barely passing pilot in a Western air force. Why? There are a few reasons but first and foremost is the sheer difference in opportunity for professional development.<br /><br />What is unavoidable as the Ship to Captain ratio falls is that command opportunities decrease. If we agree that command ability and experience is still the "gold standard" of what makes a Captain, then it is the logical conclusion that as a *group* the current batch of Captains are less qualified to hold the rank than previously, no matter what the promotion percentiles are.<br /><br />And that's not a funny thing. The Royal Navy takes great pride in the idea that they and their officers are a cut above most (and we only count the "advanced", "1st World" militaries in this). That may well be. But how long will it last if they keep diluting the "gold" in their Captain's bars? When will others finally figure out that the 24K gold (and it really hasn't been 24K gold, at least on average since at least the 50s, when they officially decided that about half of Executive branch's commanders will be "Dry" with no further sea command experience) in a Royal Navy Captain's 4-stripes has deteoriated to 3K?<br /><br />Of course, this is not only a Royal Navy or even British Armed Forces problem, but that doesn't make it healthy.arkhangelskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15247250672432027166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-57427359681392518752013-10-24T15:53:57.595+01:002013-10-24T15:53:57.595+01:00Given the numbers I really don't think the RN ...Given the numbers I really don't think the RN suffer from that scenario. With so few actually making it to Captain I would say it is more than deserved. The RN is far from top heavy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-85277330772438828382013-10-24T06:12:20.702+01:002013-10-24T06:12:20.702+01:00Reserve officer capacity is generated by giving pe...Reserve officer capacity is generated by giving people plenty of opportunities, not just sticking more people with ranks they barely deserve (on basis of their operational experience). That is to say, all else being even, a Navy with Lieutenants that have commanded warships has more "spare capacity" than a Navy with a bunch of Captains that didn't really have their fill of command.arkhangelskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15247250672432027166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-30974969734173192562013-10-23T14:52:30.642+01:002013-10-23T14:52:30.642+01:00The aerospace industry has been evolving and advan...The aerospace industry has been evolving and advancing at a rapid rate since the very beginning of its conception. Get to know some of the best manufacturers in <a href="%E2%80%9C" rel="nofollow"> aerospace industry </a> in our website beckpro.com. We have the best resources and updated list of them and we keep updating our data daily for maximum benefits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-53690989180603162712013-10-22T17:37:03.547+01:002013-10-22T17:37:03.547+01:00The biggest joke in the article was that it was so...The biggest joke in the article was that it was somehow a 'revelation'! Looking at the numbers it all looks pretty well balanced to me and quite frankly 'lean' compared with most organisations. I once worked (not for very long I am glad to say) for a multinational that had 200 Director Level staff throughout Europe for a total workforce of circa 10,000. Funnily enough when things went wrong they were able to almost half to just over 100 literally overnight, now that is overmanning and in a supposedly profit making organisation! There is also a lesson from history (as always here). Whilst I am sure that all the Captains are fully employed at the moment, having a bit of spare capacity for emergancies is no bad thing. Captain Tennant at Dunkirk anyone!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-71466055257723130202013-10-22T11:40:13.565+01:002013-10-22T11:40:13.565+01:00http://www.dasa.mod.uk/index.php/publications/pers...http://www.dasa.mod.uk/index.php/publications/personnel/military/navy-monthly-situation-report/2013-09-01<br /><br />Backing it up with a link.Jeneral28https://www.blogger.com/profile/16332640271661260029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-76481411025815238262013-10-21T18:55:24.047+01:002013-10-21T18:55:24.047+01:00Hi Tedgo,
The current strength of the Naval Servic...Hi Tedgo,<br />The current strength of the Naval Service works out as follows:<br />36,000 - <br />3000 are under training (e.g not in complement billet)<br />3000 are in the RNR / RMR - roughly!<br />7000 are in the Royal Marines<br />4000 are in the Fleet Air Arm<br />4000 are in the Submarine Service<br /><br />This leaves a total of 17000 (roughly) for all the general service jobs out there. The RN is like most forces and relies on a 'tooth to tail' ratio of roughly 3:1 - e.g. for every sea going job, you need about three people on shore to support it in some way. Added to this is the requirement for career balancing (e.g. back to back tours at sea will break people and they'll leave). <br />You need to realise that its a delicate combination of putting people to sea to do a job at different levels - breaking a low level able seaman engineer means he won't stay in to become an experienced CPO engineer - thus causing a manpower gap. <br />Its a very delicate balancing act, and by the time you've added up all the direct RN jobs, the joint jobs, the operational posts and everything else, you realise that the RN manpower is actually pretty fragile - there isn't much room to augment in a hurry without denuding somewhere else of a post. <br />Sir Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-57627147888780827162013-10-21T18:50:53.266+01:002013-10-21T18:50:53.266+01:00Hi, thanks for your message.
In general all SSNs a...Hi, thanks for your message.<br />In general all SSNs and SSBNs are commanded by Commanders these days, while Lt Cdrs generally drive MCMVs and OPVs. <br />It is fairly clear now that most up and coming officers can expect at best one 'drive' at each rank, with very few getting more than one frigate or destroyer.Sir Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08704774192275240783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-85756436269027146212013-10-21T18:30:53.775+01:002013-10-21T18:30:53.775+01:00What sort of a balance do you want? Doesn't me...What sort of a balance do you want? Doesn't mean you get more savings with less senior officers or more effectiveness with more junior officers in charge of larger roles. There is not simple solution to the number of leaders. Same goes to non-military occupations.Jeneral28https://www.blogger.com/profile/16332640271661260029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-78879020500102465262013-10-21T13:49:48.523+01:002013-10-21T13:49:48.523+01:00Not convinced by your arguments, you are looking a...Not convinced by your arguments, you are looking at this from the wrong end. You say the navy is 36,000 strong, now lets see how this is made up,<br /><br />1) 9,000 marines<br /><br />2) Approximately 3,500 people are required to man the ships, lets allow for double manning (which doesn't happen) so our fewer ships can spend more time at sea in different parts of the globe with the crews flying home after a tour of duty.<br /><br />Well we are up to 16,000 people. Now lets add 25% for training and support duties, bearing in mind that dockyards and other bases's are also heavily manned by civilians, either directly or through outsourcing contracts.<br /><br />We are now up to 20,000, so what on earth are the other 16,000 doing?<br /><br />I believe the philosophy is that once a sailor gets fed up of sea going duties, they are found a desk job rather than being asked to leave, as would happen in the real commercial world. Double manning would help with the at sea problem.<br /><br />Naturally a slimmer navy would require fewer Captains and other senior ranks.<br /><br />TedgoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-21118439006966214022013-10-21T02:57:28.030+01:002013-10-21T02:57:28.030+01:00There is a (reasonable IMHO, YMMV) paper on this s...There is a (reasonable IMHO, YMMV) paper on this subject by POGO here: <a href="http://www.pogo.org/our-work/reports/90s/ns-wds-19980301.html" rel="nofollow">More Brass, Less Bucks</a>. Sure, it's the Americans, but the same general criticisms apply. TrT's surgeon-colonel may be part of the problem, and would probably be the easiest bit to fix too, but she or he is not the whole problem. Angus McLellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14238976801715524150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-44191908033453763812013-10-20T21:03:01.088+01:002013-10-20T21:03:01.088+01:00"The numbers of proper Captains can never be ..."The numbers of proper Captains can never be fixed unless you are like the US (even then, they only fix flag officer numbers). "<br />Of course it can!<br />Dont promote people unless there is a vacancy to promote them in to, just like the real world does.TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-89187313067511473822013-10-20T15:53:02.828+01:002013-10-20T15:53:02.828+01:00Wrong: The listen is out there. SSBNs are commande...Wrong: The listen is out there. SSBNs are commanded by Commanders, NATO OF-4. There is no set rule that SSBNs must be commanded by a full Captain (4 stripes). Similarly, the T and A SSNs are commanded by Commanders, not Captains. The type 23 are te same, but only one of them is in command by a Captain--doesnt mean he is the leader of all Type 24s. LHA/LPDs are Captain-led, as were the aircraft carriers and CVF definitely will be Captain-led, XO also likely to be a Captain. Angus is right, the MCMs are LTCR-led or sometimes LT. Captains in the RN, Group Captains in the RAF, Colonels in the Army all usually are in staff positions, defence attaches, deputies of brigade/flotilla (RN doesnt exactly have one as an ocean going group, but perhaps the RFTG deputy is a Captain). The numbers of proper Captains can never be fixed unless you are like the US (even then, they only fix flag officer numbers). <br /><br />Same with the RAF and Army, and for the latter, some brigades, especially the non-deployable ones may be commanded by Colonels instead of Brigadiers, so again numbers may add up differently. Plus as mentioned, the UK has committments to NATO, defence attaches, international groups (UN) etc. To say the proportion of leaders to unit or personnel numbers is misleading.Jeneral28https://www.blogger.com/profile/16332640271661260029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-31943244930230767612013-10-20T15:09:42.807+01:002013-10-20T15:09:42.807+01:00For smaller ships - although calling HMS Scott sma...For smaller ships - although calling HMS Scott small is a bit of a stretch - the MCM and patrol ships are commanded by lieutenant commanders and survey ships by commanders. Angus McLellanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14238976801715524150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6254362504495980377.post-51824293563095673002013-10-20T13:34:23.521+01:002013-10-20T13:34:23.521+01:00Obviously the SSBNs, SSNs, and large amphibs are ...Obviously the SSBNs, SSNs, and large amphibs are all commanded by Captains, but what rank of naval officer commands the smaller RN vessels like mine-hunters, patrol vessels and survey ships? Also the Bay class LSDs, in time of war are they commanded by a RN or RFA Captain? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com